Rusmir P., 48
Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina
“I want to say that in the beginning we were minors, but in the end, we ended up in-in-in shock, doing reconnaissance, sabotage, running assault units. Special units, whatever that means…The older ones knew what was happening and how it was all going together. What did we know? Nothing. We, the younger ones— I am speaking from the Association of Underage Fighters, when that war ended, it all simply dissolved and no one took care of us. There was no program of anything [pause] like these younger ones– let's employ them, lets them get an education, nothing. Absolutely nothing.”
Let's get started. What's your name? Tell me about yourself. Where did you grow up? What was a typical day like? What was life like in Sarajevo before... everything?
My name is Rusmir P. I was born in Sarajevo in 1974. At that time, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was made up of six or seven republics and autonomous provinces, and so it was mostly great there. Life was okay. I was an excellent student. I come from a working-class family, a classic working-class family. I was an excellent student, and based on that and…I have no idea what else,
I enrolled in the military high school, studying air defense, SVŠ RV and PVO - in Rajlovac near Sarajevo, with the eventual desire to become a pilot one day.
The school was really great. At that time we were well-equipped technologically, with all of the latest capabilities. The year of ‘92… at that time, I was in the third year of high school. Everything started… the breakup of Yugoslavia, actually, the independence of the former Yugoslav republics, and um…They decided that the school from Rajlovac, which is next to Sarajevo, would go to Sombor in Serbia. However, uh it already, how can I this… everything started together, but a lot of Croats, Slovenians, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and so on, left the Yugoslav People's Army. At that time it was called the Yugoslav People's Army. So, I also returned home to Sarajevo where I joined the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's a way to say it in the shortest possible way. As for life itself, as you said before, it means pre-war experiences, war experiences, and post-war experiences, right?
Yes.
Before the war… I was quite young, and I have to admit that I thought I knew everything. I thought that everything was going to be great, that people were open, we had great freedom, that everything then what we all wish for today. Like I said… a hot, blood-thin mind. That's all related to, you can say a completely normal state of being young. So at the age of 17 and a half, I entered the army in defense of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo, and so on.
What I want to say is that we, the younger generations of that time, all of us were simply dragged into that situation.
We can let history tell who caused it, the international court in The Hague ruled in a certain way, how it all happened, you know what I mean. I’m saying we [young people] didn't influence it. We were– we were just drawn in. Plus the fact that we were young, plus the fact that we had no idea about life, about the environment, about institutions in place, and so on.
Some survived, many did not survive it altogether.
Just to mention, I am currently the President of the Association of Underage Fighters of the National Liberation War from '92-'95 of the Sarajevo Canton. There are municipal organizations, but this is a cantonal one. There are about 400 of us here uh, all of a similar-similar age, mostly younger than I am, who also entered and contributed to the army in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
When were they under 18?
Yes.
So, when did the war start for you? Was there a specific moment when you felt “Aha,it's happening.”
Well, a specific moment… By January, February in '92, considering my school, we already had non-stop alarms in the barracks, and some trenches had already been dug nearby. We had some war equipment, new rifles, new combat kits, we had some exercises, like we would go out and dig something, and so on. I'm saying that there was already some sign of abnormality. I’m thinking, “What's going on here? Everything is okay, I don't think anyone will happen. Who will come? From where?” So that was the first... My first feeling that something was going to happen, even though I didn't believe that what was going to happen was going to happen, but that's what it was..
Maybe it will be now, something new is happening…
Yes. Well, that would be the first [time]. And after that, through the war itself, I think that-that– maybe it is interesting, maybe it is not, there is no need to, um, to elaborate on all that… I am talking about everything that a man has seen…from the news of shells falling near me, to the death of my neighbor Sada, and then to the wounding of her children in the same car which was, I don't know, maybe a meter from our apartment. Uh… and I don't know, stories from comrades on the line from those fighters, everyday. Maybe it sounds strange to someone, but it was attacks every day, 1425 days of, shelling, with the news that this one died, that one died, that one is gone, that one is gone, and so on. That's it.
Now, from our point of view, of underage soldiers, what today's social and political system does not recognize is that... imagine today's youth growing up in an environment like the one I tried to partly describe for you. With what kind of world we’re living in today, and how big it is, that experience is, in fact, a handicap, when compared to someone else who spent their childhood in Belgium or America, anywhere in the whole world where there was no war. That's a huge difference [in development]. That's what I want to say.
What was the process like when you joined to the army of the Republic of Bosnia?
What? What was it like? The approach?
What was the process like in terms of you being under 18, and it wasn't like a typical…
It wasn’t legal.
Yes. Because your enlistment wasn’t in accordance with the law, what was the process like?
Okay, okay… the process was very simple. Considering that at that time, this organized “Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina” did not exist. It was called territorial defense, and some units were organized in neighborhoods, parts of the city, and so on. Simply due to their unpreparedness. People, citizens, went there, including us, who were underage, right. So we lied. We brought fake health cards and some other documents so that we “prove” ourselves to be of “legal age,” which, in the end, turned out to be not so normal, but the process itself was voluntary, meaning no one came and m-mobilized us. It was voluntary.
It was very simple to explain. If we were sitting here, where we are sitting now, and that is our-our neighborhood [gestures], our playgrounds, our whatever, and you can see there at 100 meters, 200 meters away, someone is coming, it is a logical thing that I will defend myself.
Well, that's what I mean... I'm talking about how to engage in that process as a minor and as a woman and as... and so on and it simply comes down to, uhm…
Are you going to defend yourself or not? That is a basic question. It’s not that you hate anyone or anything, it's just the way it is.
What was a typical day like during the war? How did you spend your time?
Well, that's a complex question [laughs]. It's a very complex question, but-but I don't know, uhm…a lot of things have been forgotten. Which is good for future life, and on the other hand, I think, uhm, I don't know what I want to tell you now, uhm...
How I spent my days? It depends on the unit you were in. Whether you were on a line that permanently guarded the front, the separation between some two sides, were there any trenches? Bunkers? And so on. You have shifts in all that, shifts... Now, to be on guard, you’re watching something somewhere, and then after that, you sleep a little and then you go to that place again and it lasts for two or three days, it depends on what kind of area it was and so on. You have this part where mostly underage fighters, so, “irrelevant,” younger people and brave people mostly ended up in these scout units, special units, that didn't have their own lines of defense but would have had to defend something quickly. That they would respond quickly in all of that eh, that's how it was then. That means resting in some bunkers, in some barracks, in some dugouts and some forests and so on and so on.
And then from all that they call you– I'm talking now, I mean, I don't know if it's the classic military thing and then you go somewhere, it means some shooting, some shelling, the horror of war and so on, I think it's important to note that war is something we don't need ever, even now. Now what is happening in Ukraine is all nonsense, it is unbelievable to my brain that civilization in the 21st century is guided by force by whoever it is - whoever, I mean whoever, because I thought we had risen above all that, but anyway– I'm coming back to this.
I'm trying to-to give you some… how to say…in general there's nothing much to say. Military life… sleep, it's good to eat something if there's something to eat, we're not talking about the quality of anything–that was horrible. Maybe you could have some kind of fun, but it is not that much fun because everyone is under stress and everyone is waiting for that call. “Here, you, respond.” “You need to respond there.” Or, “Here they are attacking us, here they are attacking us,” and so on. And I am talking about Sarajevo.
Now you are on that frontline, somewhere, and then when you return home it is more dangerous to come home than to be on the frontline because you are there in the open, and that grenade can fall whenever, that sniper can… I don't know... leaving the frontier and coming home was a lot more dangerous than frontier itself. You have some bunkers as protection, you know it's a dangerous part.
This is what I'm talking about for Sarajevo
Were you in Sarajevo the whole war or the whole time you were a soldier?
The whole time, the whole time, I was here in Sarajevo, near our base and all that. There were exits to the outside through the tunnel, through the Sarajevo tunnel, some external war around Sarajevo, and so on. I was not in those fixed line units that held that hill, that meadow. But they, underage soldiers, they were there, so, um… through our project 'Children of war, children of peace', I met a member of the army of the Republic of Srpska, who was at the same time in in the same month on the same day in the same place somewhere on the Nikšić plateau.
[Laughter].
What was the dynamic between you, as young people and underage soldiers in the army, and those people who were older and had been in the army longer?
In what context? Hate of et-ethnicity or po-political understanding? Or…?
Among other soldiers, within the army itself.
I, uh well no, uh as far as this one is concerned– Again, I’m talking about Sarajevo, and maybe the larger urban areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina, uhm [silence]...in Sarajevo, at the beginning of the war, the units were full of, what today they call different ethnicities, different peoples. Today that is emphasized a lot, but at that time,
it was simple: everyone was there in my unit. There were all ethnicities. It was not a problem at all.
There were those who left Sarajevo, went to the other side, and shot. And that’s a fact. And-and-and–okay, his choice, but maybe I can say that in Sarajevo, the army was absolutely a mix of everything. On the other hand, among the younger generation [of soldiers], the same thing happens because we don't understand and we didn't understand then, nor did we want to understand, maybe even to this day we don't want that kind of emphasis on all that in relation to man. You're a good man or a bad man, and that’s it. You can be, I don't know what, and so on.
That's another thing. If we started in '92, at 18 years or 17, 16, years, and so on, by the second year we came of age, but already had one year of war experience, so we were already recognized as having potential. So, after that, the older ones, w-what you said a moment ago, recognized us because we were young according to the military regulations.
But then it just pushes you into some more dangerous situations because you are younger and so then it means second year and then that's it.
So I want to say that in the beginning we were minors, but in the end, we ended up in-in-in shock, doing reconnaissance, sabotage, running assault units. Special units, whatever that means, and that was the difference in thinking. The older ones who knew what was happening and how it was all going together. What did we know? Nothing. We, the younger ones... I am speaking in this case, since I am from the Association of Underage Fighters, when that war ended, it all simply dissolved and no one took care of us. There was no program of anything [pause] like these younger ones– let's employ them, lets them get an education, nothing. Absolutely nothing.
You mentioned that now you work with former underage soldiers.
Yes, minor fighters..
Yes. What is the scope of your work and what is the goal of that organization?
Our organization is the UBMDRKS, an association that brings together former soldiers who entered the army as minors and fought. The goal of all this is to raise the economic and social status of those soldiers, along with their resocialization and rehabilitation.
Why? Currently 40%, and sometimes as high as 50%, of them were unemployed. They are doctors of science, they were company owners, [and they are unemployed]. Then, there is a large number for whom the housing issue is unresolved, in terms of whether they have an apartment or all that, jobs and so on.
The types of jobs that are mostly accessible by our members are simple jobs, simple things like, at the beginning of the pandemic we had 55 of our members lose their jobs because they were doing simpler jobs and so on and so forth.
So, recently, we have formed an initiative–in fact, we do it every year, but this year we have taken it seriously–we want to have a special law to support underage fighters for the Canton of Sarajevo. Why? Through this law, in two or three years, these issues will be resolved.
My friend died six months ago. He was a year younger than me, an underage fighter, before that. It was exactly the anniversary of the First of July. Before that, there were also many suicides by underage combatants. Now, just to continue vaguely, minor fighters have the status of an ordinary fighter like everyone else, if they are older. They have that status, and that's all okay, but, I'll call it an advantage, as minors we entered all that and survived.
However, there are 102 minor fighters who entered the army as minors and died as minors.
There are also RVI without a leg, without an arm. The main goal is to sensitize the public, political society you know, to recognize this group, this phenomenon, that made an immeasurable contribution in that time for this which they enjoy today.
So it makes sense... when did that... like that initiative started in '95...
See, in 2010, we organized ourselves for the first time, uhm former president Kemal Šalaka, who started that initiative. A lot of people joined and we formed that first association, to try through projects, through various activities, to simply uhm improve the status of the former minor fighters. The fact that they were child soldiers, on one hand, that they were protected by the Convention bla bla bla, and on the other hand, that again in that one year, we all came of age, but with enviable war experience, which is very desirable–military analysts know what that means.
Just to backtrack a bit, when you were in the army, what was your day-to-day? What did you eat? How did you have fun?
So, first I will start from my family, right? Uhm, considering—
Did you live with your family?
Yes, yes, so during the war of aggression in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, in Sarajevo, I lived with my older brother, mother, and father. And there we were in our building, that burned down a while ago now, I think it's now some...unsolved housing issue. In our case, there was a rule that said that for those over 60 and under 16 have the right to an additional, I don’t know, 50 grams, 100 grams of milk powder [and other rations]. [My family] and I were in this group under 60 and over 16, so we didn’t get anything, in terms of donations and so on.
My family and I had a lot of trouble regarding food and so on and so forth. We had to go and plant, down like a garden, we planted this and that. It was simply..a disaster. Firewood, electricity, there was nothing like that. Just the other day, I was laughing with one friend about it - all of that.
We were laughing–one time, we're standing outside, it's dark, there’s skyscrapers over there, everything is dark, you're talking about nonsense and then, suddenly, the electricity came, so everything turns on. The whole skyscraper turns on, buildings, lights, vacuum cleaners–a vacuum cleaner can be heard from every apartment. Someone runs out to get video cassettes (at that time there were videocassettes), movies to watch, this one, that, and no one is anywhere on the street. It lasts for two or three hours, that there was some electricity. And then everyone could bake, cook, vacuum–to catch the electricity, to do something.
As for here in the army, is the food itself in the army a disaster! So, um… here, breakfast is some tea, or something called tea, with a s-slice of bread and like, some butter. I realized that the butter was extracted from the same big barrels that we used for fuel, so. Then lunch, now there were different versions, but I will say one version from when I was in the field for 59 days. The terrain means that I'm outside of Sarajevo in some forest, I'm somewhere, somewhere... For fifty-nine days, one day was pasulj and one day was grah, every day. And I was lucky, I thank svimoš for saving me - svimoš is wild garlic. And that's it, that was breakfast and lunch. And there was something else that I remember… there was pasta,they're called macaroni, but it's one big mixture of some–I don't know even know, like some white cheese, I don't know what it is, and macaroni is like that. It doesn't look like it at all, it's a mess. That’s it…
Did you have fun? Did you enjoy yourself?
In what? [laughs]
Like from a human aspect.
Yeah, human… when you’re in the military, since you are not there non-stop, you have to be home for 4-5 days, there was no special party, people played poker, if we’re talking about games, chess and so on, nothing really... into cigarettes normally, that is, but there were no cigarettes. And then there was that situation where theSarajevo tobacco factory was making cigarettes, but the paper ran out, so it was wrapped in newspapers, so… it-it looked interesting, you could read something out of it all [laughs].
Eh, then… at home, if there is no electricity, if there is nothing, it simply means rest, hiding. Possibly going somewhere with your friends if you can find someone somewhere, but... maybe some others had fun, I didn’t.
There were some concerts, there was Iron Maiden concert during the war. I wasn't there in Sarajevo right then, I would have liked to come but…at least it means somewhere there was fun, somewhere there wasn't, right…[pause].
I don't know what exactly to say now... In general, everyone was worried and it was, it was really palpable, um… I felt that. There were nice interpersonal relations, I mean, in the part of help and assistance and-and understanding and empathy and we all lived together...it was nice in that part . Somehow, more human. Warmer, more human….
Was there that sense of comradery or compassion between people?
Well, yes, yes, yes...that's what I want to say. Empathy toward each other. We all lived accordingly, we all experienced the same thing. Some [experiences] were less bad, but it was all almost the same. And we did what we could to help each other, whatever it was. It was done to survive. These are already those instincts for survival in any way.
Not to mention the various wood stoves that were used to keep people warm and so on.
Was there anyone who really helped you during the war?
No.
Okay.
No. Nothing special. In my– in my exact case, no. I know that others received packages of some sort, something, but in my case, nothing. I can't say this and that organization or this and that... no. I can't. I can't single out anyone, maybe this family from Herzegovina sent something, but I don't even know how it got there, I don't know how it got to us in the first place.
When did the war end for you?
How did the war end for me?
Yes.
[Laughter] Well, uhm…my military engagement ended with the signing of the Dayton Accords in the year of '95. And at that time I was in Bihać, on that battlefield. And from there, when I was returning, I knew that there was no more war and I was immediately demobilized, that’s what they call it. I got out, I left, so maybe I was perspective but I- I…couldn't do it anymore. I enrolled in university and simply left that army because actually with 21 years of life, I turned 21 in 1995, when I was uhm 21 years old and one month I already had seven years in the army behind me, meaning from ‘88, ‘89 to ‘95. Three years of military school, four years of war and that was enough for me… seven years of my life in the army, from 14 to 21.
Why were you in Bihać?
Well, uhm, for action up there which was Storm and all that together..
Ah, yes..
I mean, I didn’t meet with the Croatian army, but that's tha-that period, time... there were a lot of units that...were in that part.
Was it only when you returned to Sarajevo that you felt the war was over? Was there a specific moment?
In terms of ending the war, is that it?
Yes.
Well, nothing…the Dayton Agreement was signed, there were no more war activities, there is nothing, and that’s it. I happened to be in that Bihać district, so when I returned home that was it.
The only thing is that after that, maybe for a year, I didn't go on some streets, because there were sniper shootings [during the war]. I always went around them. And then I later realized that I didn’t need to g-go around [laughter] because [the war] stopped.
But that was simply this path of life– if you knew that street, it was the lifeblood of the city, the link between the old city, the Center, New Sarajevo, the main street where the tram goes, it was impossible to get there... I was on the tram once when it was working [during the war], a sniper shot on the tram and I was on that tram here at Marijin Dvor, that's a fact, now I've forgotten it. It's not interesting to me. During the war, I was declared dead three times - that's how it is now called as “declared dead” because I was buried, with earth, logs, this and that, and then the news went out that I was uh, uh, that I was...finished. [laughs]..that I'm finished but I'm not, you know.
Are you willing to share any of those stories?
Here. Like this. So as far as that part is concerned, this one case… this one case was this one in 1995... irrelevant. It was a beautiful day, it was sunny, I even had sunglasses. It was hot, it was hot. And in the part of the surrounding area, there are trenches. Trenches that are two meters high. Now on the side, in those trenches (we called them wolf dens or dug outs) [you would] hide there from shelling or whatever and so on and so forth.
So it's like, kind of a vacation there [from the war] [laughs]. It’s all located underground, right. So now I'm sitting in that trench, literally just like the way I’m sitting now, and on my right side is the entrance to that wolf's den. In front of me is the “wall” of that trench, the left side is a trench. So I leaned on my back on the wall of that ground on my jacket, my camouflage jacket, and my cousin came to light a cigar and he sat across from me, literally like you are sitting now.
And at the moment when we wanted to light that cigar, something exploded.
I found out later that they threw a 60, 80 mortar shell into the trench...and there was a flash, all of that, and in the next scene, uh, I was laying down on the floor. My cousin is over my legs and he is also lying there. And now there is smoke, dust, dust - you can't see anything. You can't see anything at all.. This cousin – “What's wrong?” He says. “Uh…nothing.” “I'm wounded,” [he says]. And he goes down the hill because it goes like a trench, it's not straight but uphill, downhill, and he went downhill. And because he was wounded in the head, his blood was all over my legs, on the shins, thighs. And now a friend, “Where are you, Rusmir? What’s happening?” I said, “I don't know uh…” He said, 'You're wounded, your legs are wounded!” I said, “My legs aren’t wounded! I can't see anything! I'm blind!” I can't see anything. Absolutely nothing. Blind - blind!
“No, no, you're wounded in the legs!” This, that, and now I'm all in that dust, that's it- they picked me up, my head is still ringing, I can't see anything. He says “Take off your glasses.” And there is a half-centimeter layer of dust on the glasses. And now everything is okay [laughs]. And I go into that wolf's den, right, and there's a field phone, and the phone rings and I think, “I'll pick it up,” just to hear what's happening.
And I hear, “Rusmir died, there is no Rusmir, Rusmir died” because this cousin went down there left, he thought that I was finished, that I was gone. Then I answered [the field phone] and said “No, no no, everything is fine, everything is fine, don't worry about anything.”
Eh, now the second part of the story, a short part of the story, is that now that jacket I was laying on, was full of holes. . I was looking at it, I don't know where it went... so it wasn't clear to me where it went at all. That’s still a question mark for me to this day... If I was leaning back on my jacket and when all this happened, how could my jacket be pierced with tiny shrapnel holes? Anyway, I had to get another one. That's one case.
Another case. Somewhere, outside of Sarajevo there was a situation in which they just destroyed us. Nine, ten of our comrades were killed here, wounded there. I mean we were surrounded. I barely got out of there. Luck, luck.
We got out, but the news–because [the operation] lasted for two or three days– the news reached my mother and told her that that I was finished. It's the worst when it comes to the parents that-that-that… something happened. That's it. I don't know what else I would...uhm....The sniper shot near my head, there was some house, some gutter next to me, it missed me and hit the house. I don't know what else I would... The fact that the shells shook off, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, I mean, a grenade falls, a vacuum is created, and then that explosion and it completely stuns you and then you actually don't know where you are.
And there were countless, countless such situations...Then watching wounded comrades uhm… without limbs, with this…that… I mean… those are terrible scenes of war which are...simply war is an unnecessary thing. That's what everyone on planet earth should understand.
That's what I want to say... When force is unleashed, force can only be answered with force, or you can leave, but you have nowhere to go if they come after you non-stop and if they want to kill you.
And normally, the hatred that is being sown, nationalism, hatred, and all that together…these are nationalist stories should simply be avoided and fought against, because everyone deserves to live on this planet.
You mentioned that when the war ended that there were no resources for you, especially for minor fighters, what kind of help do you wish you had?
After the war, there was no program, state program, in which they came to me, let's say to me, to offer me something, to take care of me, to help me with something. Absolutely nothing, maybe based on my youth, my goals, my intellect.
After the war, I enrolled in college. Some didn't, the veteran population in general. But I enrolled in the Faculty of Criminal Sciences and I finished it, not within the deadline, but I had to give myself a breather as a young man, I think. I mean, that's logical. I also have a master's degree in journalism, which means additional training in education, management, resolution, reconciliation, and so on, so I've been applying all the time for various jobs, but it's not possible for state positions, which I’m interested in.
So then one has to find some other tools or mechanisms in order to survive in all this. There was no program from that side, and why is that important?
If we were then young, er, minor fighters at the beginning, after that we were of normal age and by natural selection we are the last generation that will bear witness to that time. And in my opinion, it is very important that the state recognizes and supports it.
Yes, what I'm saying is watering the flowers, maybe, but if it's nothing, then- that something is not normal. But, if you don't take pictures with politicians, then they won't even look at you, at least as far as our organization is concerned.
But what we’re saying means that politicians cannot use a soldier to achieve his goals.
I guess a soldier is a user of those services that the state offers, or that politicians care want to help, and so on and so forth. It gets a little funny when you say minor but we are, that's how it was then and we will die as such, right?
I mean, that's the truth, that's not something to hide, but that's the way it was, whether someone likes it or not, that's the way it is. I'm sorry that my life turned out like that. In light of such events, I would have preferred to have grown up in America or, I have no idea, Germany, Sweden, so that I had a normal development without talking about the psychological aspect of a minor, adolescent minor, how the environment and growing up affects his future life. I consider myself okay, but how okay are we when you have such growing conditions in Palestine, in Ukraine…there are already underage fighters in Ukraine. I have already seen and noticed that, because it is normal that you will defend your neighborhood. And that means that, especially in Sarajevo, and in, let’s say, Mostar, and so, the number of underage fighters increased, those who as minors joined the army. So, according to the law, the one who defends himself uses everything that can be used to defend himself. And that is why there is an increased number of underage fighters.
Well, yes, that makes sense.
Everything will be okay. Thank you for your interest, in this part I know that your focus is this part to try what war life was like, I probably didn't say anything specific because I don't know what to tell you, so when you take to someone a tomato during the war, it's the same as if you brought him a hundred million marks. Because it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist, that's not it, it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist…
There are war profiteers, let me say it right away, who had a great time and are still doing great today, who take advantage of such situations, who are the way they are, I am not interested in their problems. And is that right? Wrong? I will never say that it's okay, it's not okay, and that's it.
Also this part of what you said, about how the food was– so I talked with the so-called the Army of the Republika Srpska, which was all put together and judged in The Hague, they say that they received cans of five kilos of beefsteak. That's-that’s-that's the logistics from Serbia, from the Serbian army was sending five kilos of s-steak. I hadn’t seen steak in four years. I didn't, maybe someone else did, I didn't. And we had Ikar. I mean, we survived on it, but the fact is that it was… it was how it was. It's good that there was that too. There were the lunch packets, what do they call them? The French? The Americans? I don't even know, brown paper bags. There were various combinations, that's what it's about...generally...weak.
Mhm.
In that part back in the 90s, changes were taking place in the social structure of Yugoslavia, right, at that time, the European Union, I assume America too, offered the leadership of Yugoslavia at the time, billions of dollars to carry out this, how can I say it…it sounds ugly, but a peaceful disintegration of Yugoslavia. So a peaceful breakup. So, “Here's your money, now each country, republic will be a special republic, and then you will enter the European Union that way.”
Even today, had that scenario happened– which was possible if there had not been such nationalist leadership, both in Serbia and in Croatia, who wanted to achieve some low, primitive level goals–then everything that happened would not have happened. This much population would not have been displaced. There would not have been what happened... and that point is not clear to me even today how they couldn't understand that no matter what happens, they'll come back to it again.
So we'll deal with the European Union, that's something that needs to be done, and to this day, we're all striving here, Slovenia in the European Union, Croatia in the EU, we want to, we have internal problems, Serbia wants to-doesn’t want to, and will in the end, Macedonia already is, right. Why did anyone need for what happened to happen?
In my opinion, the answer is primitive nonsense. And they simply don't know what to do with themselves, so… let's go to war.
There, that's what I wanted to say.
Yes. I agree.
The same for Ukraine. I think maybe the relations are a little different, but uhm...all this will pass for sure. Whatever the result, some population will come back and live again– and what happens in the meantime? The population, children, women, everyone is suffering. The culture is falling apart. There is no life...Why would they need that?
It doesn't have to be...at all…
Well, I think that if it were Russia, if it were France, what would change? Anyway, nothing will change. Again, a man has to live, he has to work, a simple thing, and as the saying goes.
Yes.
War, war does not bring anything good. It-it brings good to these profiteers, that's it. Like this, it brings good to people who don't like people, who don't like life... and there certainly are such people... simply people who don't like the sun, life, nature, another human being, only to be alone on the planet..
Right.
Which is total nonsense.
Yes, and–
–And how many questions do you have? [laughs] Are there - are there a million questions?
[Laughs]
I wanted to be prepared.
A prepared, good, good come on just shoot, shoot, shoot.
Have you noticed changes in Balkan culture before, during and after the war? And what was it like?
So has there been a change in culture, or what? In general?
Yes. Culture.
[Laughs]. Well, you know what, these things are very, very simple. I mean, the nineties–before the war– the nationalist fascist rhetoric was on a ground level. Tito tried to tame it, I will say it that, but he couldn't solve it completely. Why I’m saying that is because today the European Union or America, after all, as advanced democracies, work on this principle, that everyone has all the rights. Everyone has all the rights that follow them and minorities and majorities and this and that and so on and so on and everyone has the right to life!
Well, that was the situation [in Yugoslavia] before the war. Everyone had the right to everything... and if we are talking about culture, or customs, ethnicities and so on... that is my understanding of everything. Whoever wanted to go to church, mosque, cathedral, could go. Whoever didn't want to, didn't even go, right?
What I want to say. Um… the system, the state political system of the former Yugoslavia has nothing to do with communism and nothing to do with this classic democracy either, it was something in between. Some socio-democracy, something in that light. This is my understanding of the former Yugoslavia, the entire region, and everyone had a great time there.
That's my opinion. Then those nationalist groups came forward and started spewing their rhetoric that everyone…everyone is threatened by everyone. So something simply surfaced. Something that was not true. That dragged us, all together, into a period of thirty years or more where we all lost. Everyone is lost in this region. We lost time. What's worse, we lost population. Genocides were committed. War crimes were committed. Displacements. Rapes. Terrible, uhm… trag- tragic.
But, on the other hand, the court in The Hague started considering the act of rape as a war crime, which was not the case prior. I'm talking a-a-about the apocalypse of what happened to us, what happened to the population of the former Yugoslavia, and especially Bosnia and Herzegovina, which paid the biggest price for all of it. There were large migrations, relocations of the population from one part to another. And with that, there was a change of consciousness, which in all this has this nationalist undertone.
Well, now, that nationalist message is yelling, howling its loudness of hatred towards the other and different on any basis. It scares others and so then, there’s an impression created that this is so...that this is so. However, in the context of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I know that it's true for a thousand years, that people of different religions, ethnicities, worldviews, and so on have lived here. A thousand years. It is the richness of the way of life and the understanding that there is a church, a mosque, a synagogue [in the same place]... that is something normal for me and for the Bosnians and Herzegovinians, the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That part of the culture is influenced daily by this nationalist rhetoric that [our culture] is not like that, that it cannot be like that, because of their false patriotism.
That's it. Corruption and-and-and robbery of one's own people, one's own-own population. That's why one gets the impression that somehow it all stands together in time.
Do you have anything specific that you want people to know about the war? Maybe foreigners or Americans?
Eh like this...Peace has no alternative.
[Laughs].
So that's number one. For anyone on this planet earth.
We build peace every day. Peaceful work is everyday. Peace is not static. You need to work on it every day.
You should reasonably let someone know that their violent behavior that disturbs the peace. What peace? Primarily this physical, security peace, economic peace, cultural peace, any other kind of peace. If this is loosened, then everything will be disturbed, and the planet will be disturbed, and so on and so forth.
I'm talking about my experience. I've been in peace. I've been in war. I'm in peace again. And I realized, maybe it sounds like it's simple, okay... but, life in peace brings this [gestures]: we drink coffee, talk, and we do not fear for our security. If I try hard, I can achieve my dreams and whatnot. In wars and in a state of unrest, there is no such thing. You only worry about your physical survival... War leads to nothing.
War is a form of communication. A classic form of communication.
Primarily, some people are sitting somewhere there, whether they are management boards, various boards, some organizations, where they argue about something. They argue about their interests, their money, or some mistreatment of some regions or whatever else. Well, let's go to war now–it's communication. And after a bit of time, they sit down at the table and say “What are we going to do now?”
What happened in the meantime? The mass of the population that has nothing to do with that conversation suffers its consequences. Here, today, we are paying for inflation as a direct product aggression of Ukraine. What's the point? Why is that? Didn't we finish that part? [In terms of] the development of consciousness, humanity and so on... [pause]. One more thing from this part, uhm, is how, in war-- what is there in war, how come...I'll paraphrase my mother. I asked her something about that she did during the war because I wasn't home then.
She’s sitting at the window, it's night, and the shells are falling all around. They are falling both left and right around wh-where we live. Both of her sons aren't there. And she said she didn’t know what's more difficult for her: whether a grenade falls on the left side where I am, or on the right side where my brother is. Each of them bursts her heart. That's war.
And of course, mothers, who are often forgotten perhaps because they are not mentioned enough...mothers...suffered through all that...in their souls and hearts.
Yes, yes, yes... Last question. The project is called The Burek Initiative Do you have a story about burek?
About burek?
Aham.
[Pause]. Well, I love burek and let it be, let it live long. [laughter].